![]() | Everybody Talking at Once
Well, in the last two days, I have talked with browsing, Speed Racer, and Green Beret. I've learned a lot from them. Browsing says that Speed Racer and I are like a couple of bookends, almost identical in our viewpoints in this whole corruption in the pulpit mess. Speedy thought this very funny when I told him this. But both of them caution me that these people who we deal with may truly not know the Biblical approach to examining a person's profession of faith, and the truly Biblical approach to applying investigative techniques to allegations of harm and wrongdoing. To me, such ignorance is appalling, and I believe it disables a man from holding the office of pastor, elder, or deacon (however your church divides up those roles). |
![]() | But browsing has pointed out that these men who sheltered Dave Hyles in their church, though they did a foolish and unbiblical thing in failing to examine his profession of having repented from gross sin, did not comprehend the enormity of their error. Browsing also pointed out to me that these men do not know how severe their lack of knowledge is. They have grown up and matured under the teachings of Jack Hyles and do not have the broader knowledge of the Scripture to critically measure his teachings. All his life, he re-taught all doctrine to suit his corrupt lifestyle. Such ignorance does indeed exclude them from the ministry. And yet, they are now in the ministry, with congregations equally untaught, and no men of better teaching in place to take over. The only thing to do is to urge them to take up the Bible and read it for what it says, not for what Jack Hyles told them it says. |
![]() | You really have it for me ..don't you BASS?Posted by The Good Doctor on Oct-17-03 8:21am (In reply to: Marine, sort of like Jonathan saying ----- posted by BASSENCO on Oct-17-03 3:01am)
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![]() | Re: You really have it for me ..don't you BASS?Posted by BASSENCO on Oct-17-03 2:08pm (In reply to: You really have it for me ..don't you BASS? posted by The Good Doctor on Oct-17-03 8:21am) |
*I* suffered from your incompetence, Jonathan. Second, at least one family in your church has been broken because of Dave Hyles. Your church's leadership has responsibility for that grief. Finally, others within and outside of the church were used, cast aside, and enticed into gross sin because Dave Hyles could hide behind his role in your church. Your responsibilities in this matter are enormous, and I was silent about it, until you made a declaration too glib and superficial for me to take. You don't even understand the damage you have done to people, especially to children.
The failures of IFB preachers and the lives they have ruined have thrived because IFB preachers argue that these matters are nobody's business but theirs, and they have the authority to handle them as they see fit. That's not true. Those people are my brothers and sisters. Brent Stevens is my son in Christ, and the man who Paul Ciolino called the prime suspect in Brent's murder found haven and a staff position in your church.
I promised God two and a half year's ago (when I learned how vicious Dave could be but made the decision to go to the PP police dept anyway) that I would speak for Brent's dignity as though he had been my son. And I will. My son Brent died with broken bones that had not fully healed; did you ever think of his pain and the dignity that was taken away from him? You trampled Brent's dignity as well when you failed to examine Dave's life. And I am going to speak on behalf of my son in Christ, Brent, because I promised God not to forget Brent's value.
You made Dave Hyles my business because your church leadership refused to make the biblical way of delaing with him your business.
I read browsing's e-mail last night, and I'll give you time. As far as I know, I've stuck to that promise to him (having read his e-mail at around 8:30 pm). I've already removed a post in reply to Baldpate that may have been needlessly harsh on you.
But if you push me or get into this "It's BASSENCO's fault" malarkey, I will push you right back and continue to point out the fallacies in your claims and the error in your doctrine. I have had enough of the errors of Pinellas Park Baptist Temple to last me for the rest of my life. But if there is any hope that you truly love God, I don't want to have this opinion of you.
And again for this being my business: I believe that your errors continue to endanger Christians. There is no evidence at all that you are any wiser in these matters. I'm not proud of holding you in contempt. I know that God doesn't want me to feel that way or think that way towards you, regardless of your standing in Christ. I am trying my best to look for the grace of God in you, especially with browsing's advice and counsel to me.
As for your recent comments: If my reactions stop you from doing the right thing, I doubt you ever intended to do the right thing. There are ten year old kids who will tell the full truth of a matter regardless of the consequences. Live up to their example.
BASSENCO
![]() | BASSENCO
Posted by The Good Doctor on Oct-17-03 3:09pm (In reply to: Re: You really have it for me ..don't you BASS? posted by BASSENCO on Oct-17-03 2:08pm) BASS: *I* suffered from your incompetence, Jonathan. DOCTOR: I am truly sorry that you have suffered personally and if I aided in your suffering, I apologize. BASS: The failures of IFB preachers and the lives they have ruined have thrived because IFB preachers argue that these matters are nobody's business but theirs, and they have the authority to handle them as they see fit. DOCTOR: I never said that, I said it is PPBT’s business. I do not believe the local New Testament church should be run by a man, I believe it should be run by Jesus. |
BASS: Those people are my brothers and sisters. Brent Stevens is my son in Christ.
DOCTOR: If you are a born-again Christian your right, with the exception of Brent being your son, even though he is young it would still be a brother in Christ.
BASS: , and the man who Paul Ciolino called the prime suspect in Brent's murder found haven and a staff position in your church.
DOCTOR: We did not have enough information to convict him of this crime and apparently there is not enough yet. Please don’t take that statement as a trivial one because it was not intended to be.
BASS: I promised God two and a half year's ago (when I learned how vicious Dave could be but made the decision to go to the PP police dept anyway) that I would speak for Brent's dignity as though he had been my son. And I will. My son Brent died with broken bones that had not fully healed; did you ever think of his pain and the dignity that was taken away from him? You trampled Brent's dignity as well when you failed to examine Dave's life. And I am going to speak on behalf of my son in Christ, Brent, because I promised God not to forget Brent's value.
DOCTOR: Never knew the story of Brent until two days ago…..made me physically ill and I cried along with my wife reading the report. I see no fault in your mission and I say to you God Speed.
BASS: You made Dave Hyles my business because your church leadership refused to make the biblical way of dealing with him your business.
DOCTOR: The things we knew about Dave we did take care of Biblically.
BASS: I read browsing's e-mail last night, and I'll give you time. As far as I know, I've stuck to that promise to him (having read his e-mail at around 8:30 pm). I've already removed a post in reply to Baldpate that may have been needlessly harsh on you.
Doctor: I understand…….and I read it before you removed it and your right that was pretty harsh, sorry you feel that way. I do not feel the same towards you.
BASS: But if you push me or get into this "It's BASSENCO's fault" malarkey, I will push you right back and continue to point out the fallacies in your claims and the error in your doctrine. I have had enough of the errors of Pinellas Park Baptist Temple to last me for the rest of my life. But if there is any hope that you truly love God, I don't want to have this opinion of you.
DOCTOR: I do not recall saying anything was your fault accept when I replied to your post and said: “BASSENCO, you made me do it”, but I was in no way trying to say that you were at fault for the Dave issue.
BASS: And again for this being my business: I believe that your errors continue to endanger Christians. There is no evidence at all that you are any wiser in these matters. I'm not proud of holding you in contempt. I know that God doesn't want me to feel that way or think that way towards you, regardless of your standing in Christ. I am trying my best to look for the grace of God in you, especially with browsing's advice and counsel to me.
DOCTOR: Fair enough……..if you will have Browsing send your E-mail address to me, I will in return let you know what we knew about Dave and how we handled it. I will also let you know how a situation was handled beyond the Dave ordeal and you can judge for yourself if things are looking better.
BASS: As for your recent comments: If my reactions stop you from doing the right thing, I doubt you ever intended to do the right thing. There are ten year old kids who will tell the full truth of a matter regardless of the consequences. Live up to their example.
DOCTOR: Not sure exactly what you mean, but I think you know I do not have a problem with manning up when I need to. ;-)
Good Day and God Bless
Jonathan Farris
"Bring it On" - George W. Bush
![]() | Free-for-all
Well, yesterday's sun rose on a lot of activity in the Berean forum of the Fighting Fundamentalist Forums. Several new screen names have appeared, as they always do when Jack Hyles worshipers have their backs to the wall. A new name called "Baldpate" came on along with Jonathan Farris to call me a liar. But as Farris has so discredited himself at this point, it is hardly worth mentioning. He's rallying church/staff members to express support for him (which is a classic Hyles technique, because appearances are always important). But a lot of the "pillars" of the forum are either ignoring him at this point or posing hard questions or engaging in outright dispute with him. |
Jonathan and Christian gave some crucial information to a member of the madison family, we do not know if they were aware this was a member(but we suspect they did know). Anyway it has lead us to some serious charges. Thanks for the info, that's all we meant.
| But last night my phone was ringing all night, and I had e-mails stacked up when I got back from the trigger point massage therapist. No time for sore backs or the inversion table! Among other info, I received a call from a guy who went out of his way three times to warn Pastor Farris about Dave Hyles when Dave was at Pinellas Park Baptist Temple. Each time, Pastor Farris brusquely dismissed him. Other info came in, and I got to meet a few Christian brothers over the phone and learn of their part in the effort to help people get out of Hyles-style Fundamentalism and into the gracious freedom we have in Christ. | ![]() |
![]() | POWER PLAY
Well, in a story full of twists and turns, here's a show stopper. Up until now I had assumed that Green Beret and madisonmadness were two newcomers to a fight to get perverted preachers out of power. This fight that has been going on in the IFB movement ever since Voyle Glover self-published Fundamental Seduction 20 years ago and Vic Nischik published Wizard of God. As you know if you have been reading this blog, madisonmadness has promised to deliver the goods on Dave Hyles, the son of Jack Hyles. Dave's list of alleged wrongs is too long to list here, but you can go through this blog and read the account. (Or listen to the Preying from the Pulpit series, linked at the right). A couple weeks ago, when I came out strong in condemning the rank ignorance of Pinellas Park Baptist Church in accepting Dave Hyles onto their church staff when his list of wrongs was so egregious, madisonmadness did not like my comments and told me so. So that was when I unmasked as the person who had gone to the Pinellas Park police (and later the Orange County Sheriff) with documentation about Dave's history to warn them about the monster in their midst. Green Beret supported my stance while Jonathan Farris (son of the senior pastor at PPBT) exploded and started blaming me for what I had done. |
| Yesterday, out of the blue, madisonmadness posted a link to a criminal record for Green Beret, a stunning declaration. But the mug shot was more than a decade old (for a misdemeanor), which made me dubious about it. Yet the callousness in posting it startled me. It was done without warning to him or preliminary cautions to us. This startling post was followed by an admonition from madisonmadness that turned my stomach. He urged us to love one another and focus on getting Dave out of the pulpit. The message was clear: stay away from the preachers who have sheltered and enabled Dave Hyles, or this will happen to you, too. | ![]() |
![]() | Several people (me, AllanA, and ScottRoberts) declared that this was exactly what madisonmadness was doing. And browsing and Speed Racer posted that the record that had been linked was old, with no history of the outcome of the charges (acquittal or guilt). browsing also posted that Green Beret had come to him about the matter earlier, and browsing was satisfied that Green Beret was cleared of criminal wrongdoing. Green Beret then posted his side of the story. As things turned out, the matter had been dropped. Other forum regulars like BHarris also posted to show that there was no outcome documented, no clear account in madisonmadness's initial post of what had happened. madisonmadness, having now launched the greatest backfire in the history of the FFF, pulled the posts. (That's why I cannot reprint them here.) He denied having done it to do damage control for the preachers who have enabled Dave Hyles. He insisted that he is impartial, but his facade slipped again when he took a sideswipe at me. It didn't even matter. I was so horrified at his attack on Green Beret and the incredible maliciousness that he had shown that I figure a sideswipe from him is getting off easy. |
![]() | MadisonmadnessPosted by browsing on Oct-15-03 12:31pm |
" Meet your credible source Mr. Green Beret..."
By doing this, you have diminished your own credibility.
STAY FOCUSED ON WHAT YOU'RE DOING !!!
I saw that link on Green Beret some time ago. It was sent to me presumably by the man who Green Beret has targeted. I received an explanation about it that was satisfactory to me.
But even if totally true and not misleading (as your post is, actually) why on earth would you divert your attention and make such an inane post? If you want to get into other diversionary scuffles, do it under an individual name. Remember, whoever you are, YOU ARE SPEAKING FOR THE ENTIRE GROUP WHEN YOU MAKE SUCH A POST.
Can you do that? Can you say you spoke for all of them? I suspect not.
Be careful. I'm for you guys and your task.
Don't blow it.
---browsing
![]() | This was a power play, browsing---Posted by BASSENCO on Oct-15-03 1:50pm (In reply to: Madisonmadness posted by browsing on Oct-15-03 12:31pm) |
This was a power play, browsing---a means to bring Green Beret into line. I can't answer for Green Beret, and I'm not going to try, though I see that the alleged crime was committed a decade ago with nothing more recent to show that he has not changed (unlike Dave Hyles, whose string of cruelty is uninterrupted from his teenage years, with plenty of witnesses to the fact. In fact, I just got an e-mail from a girl he victimized when she was a teenager.).
Remember browsing, and you Green Beret, in taking on the power structure at PPBT, you (and I) are taking on unrepentant sinners who have given lip service to repentance but have strongly resisted providing any evidence of it. Indeed, there was a lot of evidence to the contrary of the claim of repentance.
These people are vicious, and have just proved it. Yes, let us stay fixed on the course. The main goal has to be to protect God's people, especially young girls and children. But let's not forget that the person who seems to be of help may only coincidentally be trying to achieve the same ends as those who demand a return to biblical church discipline and church office. There are plenty of people who have a grudge against Dave and want him put down. That's not the same thing as demanding biblical obedience in matters of church discipline and church office. Hating an enemy of God for a personal reason is not the same thing as fearing the Lord.
BASSENCO
![]() | Attention: madisonmadnessPosted by Green Beret on Oct-15-03 4:30pm |
I see you have deleted your original post.
That was a good decision. Obviously, it doesn't undo what you have done. Your post "Enough Already" wasn't enough at all.
Now, I would really like to have an apology for the way the information was posted. It was, as browsing has pointed out, misleading. I have NEVER committed a crime. I was accused of it 11 years ago and, for reasons I will discuss later, went through a PTI program to avoid a trial. You chose not to contact me and discuss it.
You chose to put the information in a post. I was waiting for one of the Douglass clan to do it. I believe you got the info from them and put it here. By doing so you have caused several small problems. Like I said before, I expected it to come out. I didn't expect it from you.
Since you have chosen not to contact me via email to discuss this in private, I will do it on the public forum. At the very least, a public apology is in order. At the very most, it would be nice if you would contact me privately to discuss the source of this information.
![]() | GB, observations on madisonmadnessPosted by BASSENCO on Oct-15-03 5:07pm (In reply to: Attention: madisonmadness posted by Green Beret on Oct-15-03 4:30pm) |
First of all, we don't know that madisonmadness *is* a collective.
Second, MM is named for a porn star, as we all found out when MM first announced himself. This link, somehow, goes back to porn.
Third, MM has today exercised a textbook IFB-Hyles technique of self defense: attempting to slander a person who represents a danger in such a way as to discredit him forever (as Hyles did in calling Vic Nischik queer when Nischik stood against him, and as Hyles threatened against the IFB pastorate at large when Sumner outed him and he finally responded).
Crowning this abominable act of hurt and hatred with a post enjoining us to behave with love just about cemented my conclusion that MM is nobody other than an IFB pastor who has a vested interest in salvaging his name from some doom. This is not a good man, as Anthony pointed out. This man is a monster in his own right.
Now add to that the fact that Dave Hyles just got booted from Neal's church.
And consider that when MM first posted, we were promised more than was ever delivered. All we got were some screen names of Dave for his porn and sex antics and an account of a woman who used to be a secretary at PPBT and is now charged with running a house of ill fame.
What we have here is a hoax. Somebody whose got to save himself from shame has put on the crusader's mask to make himself look good; and anybody who threatens to pull off that mask (even if the person did not even know he posed such a threat) will be dealt with harshly by our fake crusader.
When I went after Dave Hyles because I realized how dangerous he was, I acted without a word to anybody until after the fact. And then I only told a couple people and never posted on the forum about it until two and a half years had passed. The goal wasn't glory. The goal was to nail Dave. To nail Dave, you have to move secretly and skillfully. That's not what MM is doing. MM is trumpeting himself, handing out tokens and calling them treasures, and harming those who he thinks threatens him.
I'm not declaring WHO madisonmadness is (because I don't know), but I feel sure it is a person who is a preacher in the IFB and is trying to save face and come out a hero.
BASSENCO
| Rainy Autumn Day
It rained today in buckets. Early this a.m. when I came outside to get into the car, I could see the waning moon and stars. The hour-ride was clear. About an hour later I saw that it had grayed up outside and drizzled. Then I had four hours of class on company time (learning de-ionized beds and deactivated water processes). When I came out to catch the shuttle back to the work site, it was pouring. The downpour did not let up all day. There were things to do in the new building. I had to go up into an interstitial space and locate the solenoid cabinets where an air-actuated valve (one of many) controls a hot water supply pipe to my freeze dryer. Scalding water pours through piping that runs all the way around the machine. When it comes time to do maintenance on the piping, the only way to assure safe conditions for the maintenance techs is to close off the scalding water flow by means of a command through the computer control system. But because anybody, anywhere else in the building, can go to their control screens and reactivate the scalding water flow, the techs also have to pull the air line off the solenoid upstairs in the interstitial, plug it, and put a tag on it to warn against reconnecting it. By disconnecting the solenoid, I can make sure that the hot water valve cannot be opened, not even through the computer system. | ![]() |
![]() | The Dreaded "S" Word
At last today I was brave enough to put it into words at my chiropractor's office: Do I have scoliosis? Every time previously that he has gone from talking about "twist" in my spine and moved towards the S word, I've gone into deep denial. It's not scoliosis; it's a slight twist. But facts are facts. So I asked him. Yes, he told me, he can determine that the deviation from ideal is more than 10 degrees, and so by textbook definition it is scoliosis. And if the deviation is greater than 20 degrees, there is a chance that I will get worse as time goes by, inexorably. Only an x-ray will tell him the severity, and only an x-ray now compared to an x-ray from three or more years ago will tell him if it is worsening. I didn't say yes on the x-ray. If it's severe enough to be the root cause of all my current back trouble, than what's the point in having it confirmed and closing the door forever on the glorious kicks of tae kwon do? |
![]() | The Latest on the FFF
Well, Green Beret, one of the good guys on the FF, has declared that all eyes should be focused on the Fighting Fundamentalist Forum tomorrow night (Monday, October 12, 2003) . Go to the Berean Baptist College forum, and look for a new thread by a collective poster named "Summerfield Shuffle". He posted this last night at 8:01 PM, and there have been no replies. The poster known as WOW, who usually alternates between mockery and outright nervousness, has not replied. |
| On the weblog front, Secret Radio has hit its stride with the great catfight between Polly and Marcia, and the efforts of Marcia's roommates to save her from being expelled. The story has acknowledged a debt to VALKYRIES for depicting Christians as they are and not flinching from showing gaps in church outreach to the forsaken and abused. However, if you've read my book, VALKYRIES, you still may find Secret Radio startling. SR is a story for adults, and it deals with adult issues in church corruption. The story will entertain anybody who comes from a Christian Fundamentalist background, but coarse language is used to keep the reality, and where VALKYRIES didn't flinch in showing problems in Fundamentalism in compassionately reaching the forsaken, SecretRadio dives right in and shows the abusiveness that has gone unchecked for decades. I don't see how it's going to end happily, as VALKYRIES did. But I still recommend it as an excellent display of that thin strata of religion and sub-culture called Independent Baptist Fundamentalism. | ![]() |
![]() | CASH: American Recordings IV: The Man Comes Around
American IV includes some of the greatest and most original work Cash has done in the four-CD set. Regrettably, it includes a few pieces that I think failed him. You get the whole spectrum here, but the heights that Cash attains make the CD a classic. The two best, in my opinion: "Hurt" and "First Time Ever I Saw Your Face." The first, "Hurt," has already been reviewed numerous times. For me, the song/video work because Cash truly communicates to me in them. Listening to "Hurt" is a personal moment you have with Johnny Cash, and you love him for being honest with you, and you respect him. |
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