That Hyles-Anderson College Education Demonstrates Itself Again

Here's a gem, posted by a graduate of Hyles-Anderson college who also styles himself a pastor: Does anyone know... Posted by Pastor Marty Braemer on Dec-21-03 11:34am

I received a card that contained an interesting story about the song: The 12 Days of Christmas as actually being a Christian song. The partrige in the pear tree is Jesus on the cross and so on. Each item had a "biblical" meaning. Is this acurate or is someone simply putting their interpretation to it?

I really would like to know because it would make a wonderful illustration. The account records that in England during the period that the public display of Christianity was illegal that songs like this were sung with hidden meaning.

Re: Does anyone know... Posted by BASSENCO on Dec-21-03 12:26pm (In reply to: Does anyone know... posted by Pastor Marty Braemer on Dec-21-03 11:34am)

>>>during the period that the public display of Christianity
>>>was illegal

When, oh when was that period, Marty?

BASSENCO

Re: Does anyone know... Posted by Pastor Marty Braemer on Dec-21-03 2:44pm (In reply to: Re: Does anyone know... posted by BASSENCO on Dec-21-03 12:26pm)

Middle Ages, Bass. In proper perspective we should note that any public form of Christianity contrary first to the Catholic Church was outlawed. Henry VIII broke away and established the Anglican church. Then you could not practice contrary to the Church of England.

John Bunyan was imprisoned for public preaching/witnessing w/out a license. Queen Mary wouldn't allow people to own the Bible. It was chained to the pulpit and became known as the Chain Bible. English translators of early Bibles were hunted as outlaws and became martyrs.

It was a sivel question that got the typical Bassenco arrogant answer. You are puffed up with knowledge and self righteousness.

Neither HenryVIII/Bunyan lived during MiddleAges Posted by BASSENCO on Dec-21-03 3:15pm (In reply to: Re: Does anyone know... posted by Pastor Marty Braemer on Dec-21-03 2:44pm)

Whatever bubble gum wrapper you snatched that lesson from was a little too brief and incorrect, Marty. Henry VIII lived during the Early Renaissance period. Michelangelo was already sculpting his great works, and Lorenzo was already turning Florence into a bastion of art, education, and culture by the time Henry ascended the throne in 1509. Colet had already preached a series from the Book of Romans with literal exegesis at St. Paul's (1506) when Henry took the throne.

And Bunyan lived over a hundred years later, during the Later Renaissance and Commonwealth (and Restoration).

Christianity made inroads into England in the 500's AD and was established by the next century. (And no, "The Twelve Days of Christmas" does not pre-date Alfred the Great.) And though the nation was papist (Roman Catholic, if you like) and then Protestant (with a generous portion of the 1500's given to a period when both sides were struggling for supremacy), *Christian symbols* were never illegal during festivals of Christian reference, such as Christmas, Easter, etc.

During Henry's reign, Erasmus made the first Greek text of early manuscripts that he could find into a single text. Henry never forbad him. Later, that text became illegal to translate into English (and thus Tyndale was strangled at the stake for having done so). But none of that happened in the Middle Ages, and Henry never banned public displays of Christian symbols. He persecuted papists who said the King was not the head of the English church, and he persecuted Protestants who published, preached, or professed doctrines that minimized the authority of the state church to declare truth. But the singing of religious carols that told the story of the nativity were never banned, nor were basic facts of the faith ever banned, such as Christ's nativity, His death, and His resurrection.

Yes, people who espoused the right to read the Bible were imprisoned, tortured, and killed under Mary, (and it was truly horrible). But she never banned all public displays of Christian symbols such as the Cross, the displays of angelic heralds, the nativity, etc.

As to where the song comes from: From Medieval England and onward, Christmas has been followed by a twelve day period that culminates in the Feast of the Epiphany, also called Twelfth Night. Historically, Twelfth Night celebrations were focused on enthroning foolishness and declaring a "Lord of Fools" or "Lord of the Feast." It was a wild celebration, marked by drinking, dancing, contests of wittiness, humor, and silliness, and riddles and jests. As time passed and Twelfth Night became more tame and family oriented, the custom of serving a cake or pudding with a lucky coin inside was the way of finding the king of the feast. Whoever got the coin in his cake (or plum pudding), got to be the king.

But "Twelve Days of Christmas" is a harmless, albeit secular song that commemorates the rising foolishness and silliness that was emphasized as Twelfth Night approached. It gets sillier as it progresses, but most of the images are of feasting, dancing, preparing food and a sense of everything needed for a party being in abundance. That's all. The earliest date of the song puts in back during the reign of Charles I. It was not written in the Middle Ages at all, but two full centuries afterward. Your statement is like saying you think a Beatles song carries messages about why we should resist the Boston Tea Tax.

Like so many IFB-KJVO preachers, you are easily taken in by a modern urban myth because you have no depth of knowledge of history. Henry VIII and Mary lived during the Renaissance, not the Middle Ages. They both pre-dated Bunyan by more than a century. Go buy Schaaf's HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH or JA Wylie's HISTORY OF PROTESTANTISM. Both works, in fact, are probably available online as they have passed into public domain.

BASSENCO

Re: Neither HenryVIII/Bunyan lived during MiddleAg Posted by Pastor Marty Braemer on Dec-21-03 6:30pm (In reply to: Neither HenryVIII/Bunyan lived during MiddleAges posted by BASSENCO on Dec-21-03 4:22pm)

Those examples were only meant to serve as snip its to illustrate England's progressive position not to be taken as a chronologically complete historical time line. So when are you coming out with the Bassenco Encylopedia?

Too bad your tact wasn't quick as your response.

Re: Neither HenryVIII/Bunyan lived during MiddleAg Posted by BASSENCO on Dec-21-03 8:58pm (In reply to: Re: Neither HenryVIII/Bunyan lived during MiddleAg posted by Pastor Marty Braemer on Dec-21-03 6:30pm)

Marty, here's the truth: the cure for ignorance is information. You don't know enough about church history to be credible. Go get one of the books I mentioned and read it. It's how scores of people have gotten educated. They read books by reputable authors. That's how I did it. It's the cure for ignorance. If you think I'm arrogant, show me the integrity of your desire to be a good preacher by educating yourself.

BASSENCO