Blog on the Lillypad
Saturday, October 18, 2003
 | Everybody Talking at Once
Well, in the last two days, I have talked with browsing, Speed Racer, and Green Beret. I've learned a lot from them. Browsing says that Speed Racer and I are like a couple of bookends, almost identical in our viewpoints in this whole corruption in the pulpit mess. Speedy thought this very funny when I told him this. But both of them caution me that these people who we deal with may truly not know the Biblical approach to examining a person's profession of faith, and the truly Biblical approach to applying investigative techniques to allegations of harm and wrongdoing. To me, such ignorance is appalling, and I believe it disables a man from holding the office of pastor, elder, or deacon (however your church divides up those roles). |
Titus chapter one lays down a command that the elder pastor must "Hold fast the faithful word". The idea of "holding fast is that he clings to it. It actually connotes that he may be wresting it away from thieves or enemies. The idea is that he is in a battle to keep the doctrine pure, and to do this, he must be skillful in doctrine. Indeed, the rest of the verse carries this exhortation: "that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers." Biblically, a man who does not have great knowledge and skill in the Word of God is not qualified to hold church office. Sincerity alone is not enough.
And yes, that means that a man in church office who is gullible to the point that harm comes upon the church disqualifies himself from church office. As I documented earlier in this blog and on the FFF, my church had a board of elders who were all conned by an adulterous pastor into believing that he had changed his ways, after they found damning proof that he had behaved with indiscretion with a 20 year old girl. The head elder convinced the others that there was no biblical requirement for them to bring the matter before the church. When the congregation found out, we were grief stricken, but we were ready to remove them from church office because their conduct---while entirely just in their own eyes---was foolish and unscriptural. We voted out the pastor, in spite of his claims to have repented. The elders saved us from the painful step of recalling them by resigning and declining office. But while each of them honestly did have a clear conscience before God, the vast majority of the congregation found them to be culpably negligent of doctrine and gullible, and it was a gullibility that brought heartache onto others and allowed a man to get away with sin and abuse his office for a year or more.
 | But browsing has pointed out that these men who sheltered Dave Hyles in their church, though they did a foolish and unbiblical thing in failing to examine his profession of having repented from gross sin, did not comprehend the enormity of their error. Browsing also pointed out to me that these men do not know how severe their lack of knowledge is. They have grown up and matured under the teachings of Jack Hyles and do not have the broader knowledge of the Scripture to critically measure his teachings. All his life, he re-taught all doctrine to suit his corrupt lifestyle. Such ignorance does indeed exclude them from the ministry. And yet, they are now in the ministry, with congregations equally untaught, and no men of better teaching in place to take over. The only thing to do is to urge them to take up the Bible and read it for what it says, not for what Jack Hyles told them it says. |
And thus it goes, when ever any church, denomination, or religion goes astray. The answer is always the same. Whether it was John Colet in England, who started the English Reformation by preaching on the literal message of the book of Romans in the early 1500's, or Martin Luther who nailed his 99 theses to the door and planned to argue from Scripture instead of Church Law, or Zwingli, or Hus, or Calvin, or Wycliffe before all of them who emerged from the Black Death to declare that England had to return to reliance on the Word of God alone, or so many others. Correction begins when people go back to the diligent study of Scripture to see what it says for itself, and not what they insist it has to say.
Browsing agrees that the outrage I expressed over all that was done had to be expressed. These men need to see shock, horror, anger, at what they brought upon their own people. Yet shock, horror, and anger will not teach them. Nor will such reactions welcome them back to grace. Only grace welcomes us back to grace. Apparently browsing has been influencing Jonathan Farris as well, presenting my point of view to him, and giving him the book, Fundamental Seduction to read for himself. Fundamental Seduction is a painstaking document of evidence against the abuses committed by Jack Hyles and Dave Hyles.
So this conversation took place on the FFF yesterday. Remember, I am BASSENCO:
 | You really have it for me ..don't you BASS?Posted by The Good Doctor on Oct-17-03 8:21am (In reply to: Marine, sort of like Jonathan saying ----- posted by BASSENCO on Oct-17-03 3:01am)
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 | Re: You really have it for me ..don't you BASS?Posted by BASSENCO on Oct-17-03 2:08pm (In reply to: You really have it for me ..don't you BASS? posted by The Good Doctor on Oct-17-03 8:21am) |
*I* suffered from your incompetence, Jonathan. Second, at least one family in your church has been broken because of Dave Hyles. Your church's leadership has responsibility for that grief. Finally, others within and outside of the church were used, cast aside, and enticed into gross sin because Dave Hyles could hide behind his role in your church. Your responsibilities in this matter are enormous, and I was silent about it, until you made a declaration too glib and superficial for me to take. You don't even understand the damage you have done to people, especially to children.
The failures of IFB preachers and the lives they have ruined have thrived because IFB preachers argue that these matters are nobody's business but theirs, and they have the authority to handle them as they see fit. That's not true. Those people are my brothers and sisters. Brent Stevens is my son in Christ, and the man who Paul Ciolino called the prime suspect in Brent's murder found haven and a staff position in your church.
I promised God two and a half year's ago (when I learned how vicious Dave could be but made the decision to go to the PP police dept anyway) that I would speak for Brent's dignity as though he had been my son. And I will. My son Brent died with broken bones that had not fully healed; did you ever think of his pain and the dignity that was taken away from him? You trampled Brent's dignity as well when you failed to examine Dave's life. And I am going to speak on behalf of my son in Christ, Brent, because I promised God not to forget Brent's value.
You made Dave Hyles my business because your church leadership refused to make the biblical way of delaing with him your business.
I read browsing's e-mail last night, and I'll give you time. As far as I know, I've stuck to that promise to him (having read his e-mail at around 8:30 pm). I've already removed a post in reply to Baldpate that may have been needlessly harsh on you.
But if you push me or get into this "It's BASSENCO's fault" malarkey, I will push you right back and continue to point out the fallacies in your claims and the error in your doctrine. I have had enough of the errors of Pinellas Park Baptist Temple to last me for the rest of my life. But if there is any hope that you truly love God, I don't want to have this opinion of you.
And again for this being my business: I believe that your errors continue to endanger Christians. There is no evidence at all that you are any wiser in these matters. I'm not proud of holding you in contempt. I know that God doesn't want me to feel that way or think that way towards you, regardless of your standing in Christ. I am trying my best to look for the grace of God in you, especially with browsing's advice and counsel to me.
As for your recent comments: If my reactions stop you from doing the right thing, I doubt you ever intended to do the right thing. There are ten year old kids who will tell the full truth of a matter regardless of the consequences. Live up to their example.
BASSENCO
| BASSENCO
Posted by The Good Doctor on Oct-17-03 3:09pm (In reply to: Re: You really have it for me ..don't you BASS? posted by BASSENCO on Oct-17-03 2:08pm) BASS: *I* suffered from your incompetence, Jonathan. DOCTOR: I am truly sorry that you have suffered personally and if I aided in your suffering, I apologize. BASS: The failures of IFB preachers and the lives they have ruined have thrived because IFB preachers argue that these matters are nobody's business but theirs, and they have the authority to handle them as they see fit. DOCTOR: I never said that, I said it is PPBT’s business. I do not believe the local New Testament church should be run by a man, I believe it should be run by Jesus. |
BASS: Those people are my brothers and sisters. Brent Stevens is my son in Christ.
DOCTOR: If you are a born-again Christian your right, with the exception of Brent being your son, even though he is young it would still be a brother in Christ.
BASS: , and the man who Paul Ciolino called the prime suspect in Brent's murder found haven and a staff position in your church.
DOCTOR: We did not have enough information to convict him of this crime and apparently there is not enough yet. Please don’t take that statement as a trivial one because it was not intended to be.
BASS: I promised God two and a half year's ago (when I learned how vicious Dave could be but made the decision to go to the PP police dept anyway) that I would speak for Brent's dignity as though he had been my son. And I will. My son Brent died with broken bones that had not fully healed; did you ever think of his pain and the dignity that was taken away from him? You trampled Brent's dignity as well when you failed to examine Dave's life. And I am going to speak on behalf of my son in Christ, Brent, because I promised God not to forget Brent's value.
DOCTOR: Never knew the story of Brent until two days ago…..made me physically ill and I cried along with my wife reading the report. I see no fault in your mission and I say to you God Speed.
BASS: You made Dave Hyles my business because your church leadership refused to make the biblical way of dealing with him your business.
DOCTOR: The things we knew about Dave we did take care of Biblically.
BASS: I read browsing's e-mail last night, and I'll give you time. As far as I know, I've stuck to that promise to him (having read his e-mail at around 8:30 pm). I've already removed a post in reply to Baldpate that may have been needlessly harsh on you.
Doctor: I understand…….and I read it before you removed it and your right that was pretty harsh, sorry you feel that way. I do not feel the same towards you.
BASS: But if you push me or get into this "It's BASSENCO's fault" malarkey, I will push you right back and continue to point out the fallacies in your claims and the error in your doctrine. I have had enough of the errors of Pinellas Park Baptist Temple to last me for the rest of my life. But if there is any hope that you truly love God, I don't want to have this opinion of you.
DOCTOR: I do not recall saying anything was your fault accept when I replied to your post and said: “BASSENCO, you made me do it”, but I was in no way trying to say that you were at fault for the Dave issue.
BASS: And again for this being my business: I believe that your errors continue to endanger Christians. There is no evidence at all that you are any wiser in these matters. I'm not proud of holding you in contempt. I know that God doesn't want me to feel that way or think that way towards you, regardless of your standing in Christ. I am trying my best to look for the grace of God in you, especially with browsing's advice and counsel to me.
DOCTOR: Fair enough……..if you will have Browsing send your E-mail address to me, I will in return let you know what we knew about Dave and how we handled it. I will also let you know how a situation was handled beyond the Dave ordeal and you can judge for yourself if things are looking better.
BASS: As for your recent comments: If my reactions stop you from doing the right thing, I doubt you ever intended to do the right thing. There are ten year old kids who will tell the full truth of a matter regardless of the consequences. Live up to their example.
DOCTOR: Not sure exactly what you mean, but I think you know I do not have a problem with manning up when I need to. ;-)
Good Day and God Bless
Jonathan Farris
"Bring it On" - George W. Bush
This reply, of course, made me pause. Yes, I still see that the leadership of Pinellas Park Baptist Church did not handle Dave's initial application for membership in a Scripturally proper way. I still see that Jonathan may not have a view of events that I would regard as accurate. But I do see a change from the person who so glibly assured the forum that this would never happen again. He is willing to listen to me, willing to consider that others have a point of view that he needs to understand, and he is willing to share openly what he did in the matter to try to bring things to resolution with me.
After reading Jonathan's reply, I spent quite a few minutes crying, truly overwhelmed---not for him or for me, but for Brent Stevens. Jonathan is the first IFB person in leadership that I know of who has ever acknowledged what that child suffered before he died.
I cannot force a sudden knowledge of the Biblical doctrine of trying the saints into a HAC grad. Years of being taught a skewed concept of Scripture that is centered on self righteousness, complete allegiance to a pastor no matter what, and legalism can only be corrected by years of diligent and critical study of the Bible. But it begins with a heart that wants to understand if it has done wrong so that any damage can be repaired. The Centrality of Christ in personal confession and point of view begins the centrality of Christ in Bible study.
So I called browsing and spoke with him, and he urged me to be patient and let the Holy Spirit work in both of us. Jonathan and I agreed to confer via e-mail after the weekend, and I am taking the time to pray for him and me both.
