One Hot Debate: Requirements for the Ministry

This assertion from a poster on the FFF:
We don't need formal education. Knowledge puffs up. Humility before God is better than knowledge.

My Reply You're contradicting Scripture Posted by BASSENCO on Aug-13-03 4:28pm Paul admonished Timothy: "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

It's true, the emphasis of the word study is really to exert diligence, but Timothy's labor was to be given to doctrinal correctness (rightly dividing the word of truth). His labor was in the academics of studying the sacred text and understanding it thoroughly.

Paul wisely sets down the limits of the educated person: all achievement for its own sake he reards as dung, but he clearly states in I Corinthiansa 9:21 and following these reasons for developing his mind with cultural understanding of others:

21) To them that are without the law, as without law [not meaning he became godless, only able to converse with and understand them--ed.] (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law
22) To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

Paul's indication here is that the goal of Christianity is to be conversant with all cultures, all people--not mingled with their philosophies, but aware of them, educated in them, able to discern their beliefs and where they veer from truth.

Such a Christianity would have to be an educated Christianity--educated in a broad study of literature.

Paul reveals his own classical education (and apparent approval of some of what he had learned from the Greeks) in I Corinthians 15:33, when he warns, "Evil communications corrupt good manners," which is a quote from pagan Greek literature. Paul's use of the quote doesn't make the Greeks any less pagan, but it does show that Paul was well read in the literature and could quote it and had no compunction about doing so to serve the Word of God.

In the book of Acts, Paul again shows his broad education when he refers to the Greek poets in Acts 17:28. In fact, it can be argued pretty well, that Paul's sermon on Mars Hill was so apt because he understood his Greek audience so well.

Paul was definitely on trial at Mars Hill. The polite request for him to speak of his beliefs veiled the threat that he could be charged with "corrupting the morals of the young" if his beliefs amounted to anything that criticised or condemned pagan Greek culture. (Socrates, who also espoused monotheism, was sentenced to death for the crime of corrupting the morals od the young; that is, he spoke out against the Greek gods and many Greek customs which he viewed as self destructive.)

Paul knew the structure of the discourse that he was supposed to give, and he understood perfectly well that if he said anything that they could use against him, he could have been sentenced to death. So he structured his discourse in such a way as to fit with their culture and yet to exalt God as the only sovereign Ruler of the universe. By insisting that his God was the Unknown God, he stayed within the boundaries of Greek law. This cunning defense and exposition of his faith required a detailed knowledge of Greek culture, which Paul obviously had.

Paul's broad education in the classics, then, gives us the example to follow. We are to be as educated as possible, people who study, read, consider, and consult research. As I said before, there are plenty of well meaning but ignorant Christians. It's better to have well meaning and educated Christians.

REBUTTAL #1

BASSENCO: Paul admonished Timothy: "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

[BASSENCO:] It's true, the emphasis of the word study is really to exert diligence, but Timothy's labor was to be given to doctrinal correctness (rightly dividing the word of truth). His labor was in the academics of studying the sacred text and understanding it thoroughly.

REBUTTAL: HOLD ON LUCY!!!! You accuse me of contradicting scripture! LOL!!!! Pray, tell me this!!! Which university did Timothy attend? There are many learned men of God who have never stepped foot into a college or University. They certainly don't have a degree, but they somehow manage to do the work that God has called them to do. They are learned individuals, not because they have a degree, but because they have given themselves to study. Paul told Timothy to study, not attend the local Bible college. You accuse "fundies" of twisting the scripture to enforce their own agenda, but you, my dear, have just done the very same crime that you rail against everyone else for. Your plagaristic piece on the life of Paul was sweet, but still you have not shown me where I contradict scripture. No where does the scripture say that FORMAL education is a must for ministry. I never said that education is unimportant, I only said that FORMAL education is not a prerequisite to being qualified to ministry. Again, in your arrogance, you have proven nothing except that you are puffed up with knowledge that you think that you have. Let me ask you a question. Is college the only way to an education?

No where in this conversation have you acknowleged the superior importance of The Holy Spirit's power on one's ministry superceding the importance of education. Maybe, that is because you do think that man's ability is more effective than God's power.

My Reply Re: You're twisting history! Posted by BASSENCO on Aug-14-03 9:38am Timothy, of course, was educated in the synagogues, which provided a very good education in the Scripture of the Old Testament and gave him a complete formal education in Hebrew and the existing Scripture.

We also know that Paul sat at the feet of Gamaliel, acknowledged in that time as being one of the greatest rabbis of all time. And Gamaliel held forth with several students in the tutor system, but taught them and did not "mentor" them. Paul was fluent in both Greek and Hebrew, a man fully educated and able to converse with different cultures in their native tongues, with knowledge of their cultural expectations.

They used a tutorial system for higher education. But there was no such thing as "mentoring" to bring a man into the ministry. Timothy had very good formal education in the synagogue system and Paul is telling him in 2 Timothy that he must continue to study diligently.

WHERE DOES PAUL SAY HE NEEDS A MENTOR? No where.

Paul DOES argue for extensive education for all Christians, and Paul is an example of a highly educated man. He NEVER tells young men to enter the pastorate by being mentored.

REBUTTAL #2
Where does the Bible say that Timothy studied in the synagogue? Just curious. i don't have a Bible here with me, and I don't have the scripture memorized, so help me out with the location in scripture where Timothy studied in the Synagogue. Would that not be equivalent to our modern day CHURCH? I don't see the connection of the Synagogue and a college university. Sorry. ... Where does Paul say that one must go to an institution of higher learning to be effective in ministry.

Where did Peter attend college? how about James and John? Where did Stephen and Barnabas attend?

Does God say that college training is HIS plan for ministerial training? It is not Bible based. It is a humanistic concept to say that the power of God's Spirit on HIS CALLED servant is not enough. He must have man's stamp of approval on a certificate before he can be accepted. I rebel against your humanistic mindset, and I say that while a man must know the Word, The call of God and His empowering is of SUPREME importance. Stay in your books,woman, while the men of God are in the trenches fighting spiritual warfare for the glory of God.

My Reply Mentoring Posted by BASSENCO on Aug-14-03 11:21am (In reply to: Bass, posted by Smellin Coffee on Aug-14-03 10:58am) SC, while mentoring obviously forms a part of anybody's growth process, it is not a qualification for the ministry. Some people need a lot, and some people get enough early in life so that they are more independent as adults. Interaction with others of greater age and experience is ongoing throughout life. What qualifies a man to be a minister of the Gospel in expert handling of the word of God and a mature approach to spiritual matters and the government of church matters. Because mentoring cannot be quantified (ie, that point where a person has been mentored enough), it cannot replace formal training. That's my point. I'm not saying mentoring is bad. However I am saying it is no substitute for an education.

Addendum to My reply Re: Does the scripture say that Timothy... Posted by BASSENCO on Aug-14-03 11:42am No, a synagogue is not the same thing as our modern church. ... Boys at age three (by the time they were weaned) were started in their education and "learned their letters" in Hebrew culture. (Before the synagogue system was formalized, this training was done by the elders.) They were educated with formal training in their language and studied the Law and the commentaries of the teachers (including books that are Apocryphal) until they were old enough to read the Law before the congregation (of men). Christ Himself made excellent answers to questions based on the book of Tobit.

The education was based on two things: first, the actual language studies required to read the Law (The Torah); and second, there was formal instruction (which included A LOT of rote memorization) on the commentaries of the teachers of the past. These commentaries were called the oral Law (even though they were written down and preserved in a lot of places), and we know this compilation of commentaries as the Talmud.

The Torah had precedence as the Word of God, but all young men were educated in both the contents of the Torah and the Talmud.

Timothy, raised as a Hellenistic Jew but kept in the faith by his mother, (See Paul's commendation of her in 2 Tim.) went through that system of education, which was the custom of the Jews who "kept the faith" in pagan countries. He was well schooled in the foundational differences between Pharisee and Sadducee, and he understood the history of the priesthood and the shifts and factionalization in Jewish thought over the centuries.

REBUTTAL #3
[I] Didn't say that being knowledgeable is unimportant. I said that FORMAL EDUCATION as in college and degrees is not the standard by which we judge whether or not a man is worthy of the Bishoprick. It is not found in Scripture that it is. Through all her polished attempts, BASS has yet to prove her point to me.

Addendum to my reply All ancient education was provided by wise men Posted by BASSENCO on Aug-14-03 11:50am I don't understand your point. The education was still formalized, tested, and strictly administered. It was also based on the study, memorization, assessment, and analysis of TEXTS, not mentoring. As I said, mentoring is fine, but it cannot replace education.

You can train a blacksmith, a carpenter, a well digger by apprenticeship. But for that which requires knowledge of a text, a higher level of education is required----formal training. Whether by a tutor or a lecturer, that teaching must be systematic, tested, and demonstratable.

REBUTTAL #4
I read all of that hogwash that you put scripture into. You can assume, derive, and conclude all that you want, but there is no statement or even an insinuation that God expects everyone that HE calls into the ministry to go to the university for man's approval. Paul was educated ... Peter wasn't. 3000 conversion took place under Peter's preaching, not because of his education, but because of the power of God. While you say man's effort is a mute point in pleasing the Father, you contend that man's effort is everything in being able to be used by the Father. The same Spirit that equips man to live the faith life, is the same Spirit that equips God's called servant to preach the faith life.

My Reply Re: Here we go again!!!! For real!!!! Posted by BASSENCO on Aug-14-03 12:02pm Yet Peter, godly man that he was, was not able to minister to the Gentiles. He got caught up in his own provincialism and could not overcome the boundaries set by Judaizers, so that Paul himself rebuked Peter for withdrawing from the evident truth of Grace.

Of course God can use anybody, but it is presumption to assume that because God can use anybody there is no need to get formal education. Ridiculous! Just compare Peter and Paul. Peter saw 3000 saved. Paul wrote most of the New Testament and held together the early church by his letters, his teaching, and his travels. He did this because (as he acknowledged) he was able to be all things to all men. And that ability to communicate across cultures came by his education.

Furthermore, Paul does exhort Timothy to be as educated as possible in 2Timothy 2:15, urging him to apply himself with words that show that hard work and diligent application were necessary in formal studies in order to be able to present the Gospel well and teach his own flock. In Titus 1:9 Paul says that the elder must be competent enough in doctrine to both build up his own people and also to show the errors in the teachings of those who oppose the Gospel.

My Reply No, just an educated woman Posted by BASSENCO on Aug-14-03 12:05pm God is impressed by one thing---the righteousness of His Son Jesus Christ. Therefore going to HAC cannot impress Him. Nobody's character can impress Him. Nothing we do can impress Him.

But we are free to serve Him, and Paul admonishes us to be as educated as possible in order to reach all people and in order to defeat the foolish fables of others.

REBUTTAL #5
We need men of God to TRAIN young candidates and mentor them into the responsibilities of a minister.

I NEVER SAID MENTORING ALONE WAS ENOUGH!!!!!!

My ReplyRe: Bass, read one more time.... Posted by BASSENCO on Aug-14-03 12:07pm You said, "We don't need formal education." And I am saying, oh yes we do.

REBUTTAL #6
...As uneducated as I am with my B.S. and M.A. degree, I will walk away from this dialogue .... Bye Bye.

My ReplyRe: It is finished/Back to IFB Rule #1--Accuse Posted by BASSENCO on Aug-14-03 12:53pm You ...are not able to support your idea. (And that's because it is founded on fallacies.) You can always get more education. We all can, and we all should (which is just what Paul advocated).