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Saturday, August 30, 2003
 







An Amazing Conversation on the Fighting Fundamentalist Forum

Browsing, a godly man on the FFF, posed this series of questions yesterday:

  • 1. If a man who professes to be a Christian and a pastor has sex with a 15 year old girl, can he still pastor? Indeed, can he ever pastor? (No simple "yes" or "no" here, please; amplify a bit your reasoning)


  • 2. If a man molests his own daughter and is/was a pastor, can he ever be a pastor? Indeed, can he be in any leadership position within a church again?


  • 3. Do you think that a man who could do either of those things is even saved?


  • And since I started it, I'll answer the questions first...

  • #1 - Not only should not, but cannot pastor. He is unfit for the ministry, IMHO, and will ever after have this blotch on his record and thus would diminish his effectiveness for Christ as a pastor.


  • #2 - SHOOT HIM DEAD. HANG HIM HIGH. I don't think there's a sin under the face of the earth worse. I cannot fathom it, cannot comprehend how a man could ever do that. Unfortunately, it is hitting Christianity like a hunter's bullet and the "game warden" seems to have posted an "open season" sign. I not only think he is disqualified for the pastorate, I think he is disqualifed for calling himself a Christian. Probably bad theology but them's my sentiments.


  • #3 - I have to say yes to #1 - certainly Christians can sin and do that, but I also have to say I'd look on such a person as unsaved until there were clear and convincing evidence of a genuine, godly repentance. The second crime, of incest, well, I do not think such a man is saved. I don't see how a man could be saved and do that. I can easier understand a man murdering another man and being saved than that sin.


  • What's your thots gentlemen? (And ladies, feel free to chime in if your wish)
    ==================
    browsing


A fairly new poster named WOW responded this way:

    Is any of this true? I hope you've done your homework.


So browsing replied with this:

    Why do you ask?


And WOW gave this cryptic answer:

    I ask because I want to know if you made this up to get some talk on the forums or if you know of a man who did this.


Browsing responded with clear logic:

    What difference would it make to you one way or another? If it's made up or if I know of someone, so what? Are you saying you don't want to answer the questions?


Of course, by this time about half a dozen of us had already answered the question with our opinions, taking it in the way it was presented---a hypothetical question. And obviously we agreed that such a man could not hold church office and ought to be in jail---at the very least. But WOW's odd replies (to a question he could have just ignored) prompted me to break into the thread with this:




From me:

    As soon as I opened your latest post, my screen got all misty with condensation or something. I tried to wipe it off, but the moisture is on the other side of the screen, the side that faces the internet---and your post.

    The only thing I can conclude is that you must be sweating a lot, WOW. It came through your post. Is it hot down in Florida? Are you agitated about something? Nervous or anything? Scared of the war on terror? Scared of anything?

    Just concerned, but man that sweat is a dead giveaway.


WOW then gave this guarded answer:

    Scared of nothing. Am not afraid to answer questions.

    My answers:

  • 1. If it is true, he could pastor, except it would fail because it would not have God's approval. So, no he should not pastor but he could if he wanted to.


  • 2. If it is true, he again could pastor, but it would fail. (Same as above)


  • 3. If it is true, I have seen "saved" people do worse. Whether or not he is saved is between he and God. He could be. He may not be.


  • I have some questions for you browsing:

    Do you know of a man who has done this???

    You don't have to tell who the man is. Is he in jail??? Has he been put to death??? And most important question, What is your purpose for this post???


Of course, if you read between the lines, there is an allowance there that if such a man stayed in the ministry and DID NOT FAIL, then God may have given him a second chance. You also see that WOW is supposing much mor strongly than browsing is that a very real person who has done this very thing does exist.




Browsing in his calm way replied:

    Know of several men who have done this, or a variation thereof. A couple, for example are in jail. A few are merely waiting their turn.

    My purpose was to elicit answers.

    I thank you for yours.

    ==================
    --browsing


WOW then excused his mysterious defensiveness:

    I hope I didn't offend you with my questions. I am trying to be careful about anything I read and respond to.

    I was not trying to be difficult. My wife says I don't have to try very hard though. :D :D :D :D


By the end of this mysterious exchange, I'm sure I wasn'tthe only one scratching my head. We all raise hypothetical questions all the time on the forums and see how we apply scripture to them. Usually the person who raises the question is not cross-questioned on why he or she tossed out a topic for discussion. Yet browsing's question prompted this cross-questioning from WOW and as far as I recall, it also provoked the long, mysterious, ridiculous defense from The Equalizer on how a pastor can stay in office no matter how immoral his actions are because everybody is a sinner, and therefore a congregation does not have the right to remove him from church office. Sometimes on the FFF, you have to ask, "Are you a partof my confused view of what's going on? Or have I dropped into your confused point of view?"
 
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